Print Page | Close Window

AGM 2014 Rules Amendment Discussion

Category: Committee and Association Discussion
Forum Name: Comittee and Association Matters
Forum Discription: Discussion of comittee and association matters
Printed Date: 26 May 2019 at 2:34pm

Topic: AGM 2014 Rules Amendment Discussion
Posted By: Mark Himsworth
Subject: AGM 2014 Rules Amendment Discussion
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2014 at 9:23pm

This is an opportunity to discuss the class racing rules amendments which it is proposed be adopted by the Association at the AGM on 22/02/14.

The full amendments (together with some important introductory observations as to the rationale behind them) can be accessed - here .


1) The #3 be abandoned and the #2 be made smaller - a maximum surface area of 25 square metres. 

2) If you race with a new #1 or a new#2 you must thereafter only sail to the new rules. You cannot mix and match from the two rules. (So no new #1s and old #2s, or vice versa).

3) Boats racing entirely to the old rule can, as before, continue to do so.


Posted By: gibbd001
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2014 at 10:31pm
Forgive me for my slight ignorance on this. Is there not going to be difficulty storing a second laminate sail onboard. It is going to be necessary to keep it rolled or flaked and this remain as a long tube unless it is going to be totally trashed. Will this new proposal not cause a problem for many people?

As well as this, I thought that one of the key selling points for the class to take up the new smaller laminate number one was that it was able to be furled to make it smaller if necessary but also that it could be used in much stronger winds?

With the second rule change, how is this going to be policed. Is there going to be a log somewhere of each persons sail configuration for each race? Just because someone has registered a new laminate sail it does not mean they will necessarily use it for racing. Having got a laminate sail registered does not necessarily mean they cannot use their old no 1 all the time for racing. If someone does get a laminate no 2 but does not have a laminate no 1 as they are only upgrading their no 2 does this mean they cannot race in effect as they have partially taken up the laminate option but want to race with a no 1 old?


Posted By: Mark Himsworth
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2014 at 11:55am
Hi Daniel,

The new sail plan takes a whole sail out of the boat, so there should be more space if anything.

Drumbeat's new-tech #1 flakes to the same size as her old Dacron one did. I guess ideally you'd try not to slab up the flake, but a) we do to no apparent ill effect and b) the same would've been true to try and keep Dacron nice and crinkly!

The selling points of the new #1 were certainly that it has a greater wind range unfurled (this is true without doubt) and can be furled. Sailing with a heavily-furled sail is never desperately efficient though, and many boats don't carry a furler and don't want to, hence the optional #2.

Sailing being necessarily to a large part self-policing, personally I don't think we'll need to enforce this issue proactively. If these new rules are adopted their effect will be plain to all owners. Flip-flopping would be cheating (and would be pretty obvious - the Solent fleet is usually sub-15 boats, and you tend to watch your direct competition for what they're using), and mixing and matching even more obvious.

It's right that you could buy and register a high-tech sail but not race with it and carry on with the dacron suit. I can't see why anyone would, but they are allowed to.

The advantage to going high-tech on the #2 is much less than going high-tech on the #1. Again, I can't see why someone would invest in a high-tech #2 but carry on with the #1 (and then there are other ramifications - would they still be allowed to carry a #3?)

Hope some of these observations help. Keep the conversation up!


Posted By: George Isted
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2014 at 2:10pm
Originally posted by gibbd001

Forgive me for my slight ignorance on this. Is there not going to be difficulty storing a second laminate sail onboard. It is going to be necessary to keep it rolled or flaked and this remain as a long tube unless it is going to be totally trashed.

I don't believe this is going to be a major issue, laminate sails these days are more tolerant of misuse (folding) than they used to be (better adhesives between the layers for one). Also, you don't have to buy a laminate No'2, it's a smaller and more heavily built sail than the No1 so there is less benefit to be had when going with a laminate.   Choosing a heavier-weight Dacron or woven Vektran or Hydranet may be a very good option for this sail.

George Isted
Contessa 32 "Concerto"
Co32 Class Measurer and ex Class Captain.

Posted By: George Isted
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2014 at 4:40pm
Hi all,
Richard Vanner of Blanco raised an interesting question about the rule and I think the explanation will be of interest to all and may add clarity. Many thanks to Richard for raising it with the technical committee.

Under the proposed new rules there will be an intermediate sail that is sized to fit in the gap between the old No2 and the old No3, for the sake of naming convention in the new rule we call this the No2 because it’s the next smallest sail after the <=32sqm No1 (but for the sake of clarity here let’s call it the “New <=25sqm No2”).

Because we have simply defined the maximum sail size for the “New <=25sqm No2” then the old No3 can be used under the new sail plan until such time as the owner wishes to buy a new and potentially slightly larger replacement sail.   We believe that the difference in size between the old No3 and the “New <=25sqm No2” will be around 2smq and will make next to no difference on the water.

Richard felt that the rules do not explicitly spell out that once a boat has bought a “New <=25sqm No2” then they should stop using their old No3 as a “New <=25sqm No2”.

Having investigated, this is covered under rule 3.1 which includes the words “Sails shall be limited in numbers and sizes as follows:”   Therefore only one of each sail is allowed. I believe the use of two sails that qualify as a “New <=25sqm No2” would be outside established practice so would also be prohibited by rule 2.2.

So to be clear...
•             An existing No3 meets the new rule as a “New <=25sqm No2” so no one is being forced to buy a new sail.
•             The old No3 can be used under either the old sail plan or the new one once adopted (at which point it should be called “New <=25sqm No2”).
•             There is effectively no such thing as a No3 once the new sail plan is adopted
•             If a boat buys a sail to the new “New <=25sqm No2” specification they should not use any other sail (such as the old No3) as their No2. A boat should not have two different sized No2s in use.
•             The next smallest sail after the “New <=25sqm No2” is the Heavy Weather Jib as defined by ISAF (A No4 in Contessa-speak)
•             The “New <=25sqm No2” is an “optional” sail, it does not need to be carried – good news if you are new to racing.

I have tried to be as clear as I can above but please feel free to ask a question if you need further clarification. I firmly believe that once we are beyond this final hurdle of sail plan changes at the AGM the class will be in a stronger position moving forward.   It will still take a while for all boats to adopt the new racing rules but it is encouraging that the majority of the regular racing boats in the Solent one-design fleet have bought into the new rule, some may say that the class is now catching up with the Co32s that have been racing under IRC with an optimised sail plan for a number of years.

George Isted,
Official Measurer

George Isted
Contessa 32 "Concerto"
Co32 Class Measurer and ex Class Captain.

Posted By: christophe
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2014 at 9:48am
I know I'm not racing the right boat anymore, but maybe I'll join the racing fleet again in a few years (after Fastnet 2015). So, I try to follow the class as close as possible.
-Will the IRC class rating for the CO 32 change as well, I think it should with this new sail plan?
- why is not allowed to make a laminate nr 2? I think there is a big difference between a good laminate (technora/carbon)new nr 2 and and heavy dacron new nr 2.
- why are battens not allowed in headsails?

Posted By: George Isted
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2014 at 10:06am
Hi Christophe,
Good to hear from you and I’m sure you would be made very welcome if you want to get back into proper sailing again (joke!)

The slight reduction in overall sail area should reduce the standard Co32 IRC handicap, we need some further discussions with IRC about this.   HOWEVER – I would always recommend that an owner gets a specific IRC rating for their boat based on the exact sail dimensions as you will almost certainly get a better rating that the standard Co32 rating. My IRC rating for Concerto in 2013 was 0.855, not got one yet for 2014.

Sail materials-
The proposed new (<=25sqm) No2 is an any materials sail, can be a laminate of any sort but has the same restrictions as the new No1 in that it will need a taffeta layer within it’s construction.

Battens for headsails-
Good question, it’s a restriction that has been in the rules for as long as I can remember. My view would be that we want to make it possible for boats with headsail furling systems to race alongside boats that do not have a furling system, if we allow battens in the headsails then those without a furler will be able to use them giving them an advantage.   Therefore I support not having battens in headsails.

All the best, George

George Isted
Contessa 32 "Concerto"
Co32 Class Measurer and ex Class Captain.

Posted By: christophe
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2014 at 12:32pm
Thanks, always felt welcome in the class and made som e friends for life!

ok, but a getting a specific rating will be very expensive.

Sail materials-
good to know.

Battens for headsails-

Personally I think you should allow battens in the headsail(s). It will improve the shape of the sail. It's up to skipper/owner to decide if the want's to use a roller or not. As a racer I would never choose for a roller. Especially now the headsails have become smaller.

End of may we are racing the Sigma 38 Nationals, so maybe we see each other then somewhere around the Solent.

Posted By: George Isted
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2014 at 12:36pm
Re IRC, unless you want to be weighed and measured (because you think you have a heavier than standard boat - unlikely) you can just say on the form you have a standard Co32 apart from the sails that are x,z and Z.   That's what I did and it costs no more than a standard certificate.   Reminds me - must get mine renewed.....

Post on FB if you are over in the summer as there is always a few boats around.

George Isted
Contessa 32 "Concerto"
Co32 Class Measurer and ex Class Captain.

Print Page | Close Window